Charting the future of fracking

Charting the future of fracking

Started on Mar 19, 2012 by Dan Moulthrop

The future of energy in Ohio and across the country may very well be a future built on natural gas. If that turns out to be the case, it will likely be because of the growing use of a drilling method called hydraulic fracturing, also known as fracking. It's effective and lucrative, and it comes with some noteworthy public safety risks and hazards.

Starting at 8:30 a.m. March 19th through the afternoon of March 21st, leaders, policy makers and others will join in a three-day online discussion focused on finding a way to develop Ohio's shale gas resources in a way that maximizes economic benefit for Ohioans and minimizes environmental hazards.

Joining us for this forum are:

  • Dave Crandall, Vice President and General Counsel for Fairmount Minerals, Ltd.
  • Jeffrey Dick, Chair, Geological & Environmental Science, Youngstown State University
  • Mike Foley, State Represenative (D-14)
  • Karl Henkel, The Youngstown Vindicator
  • Heidi Hetzel Evans, Communications Manager, Division of Oil and Gas Resources Management, Ohio Department of Natural Resources
  • Brooks Miller, Sales, Ken Miller Supply
  • John Mitterholzer, Senior Program Officer, George Gund Foundation
  • Stefanie Spear, Editor and Publisher, EcoWatch
  • Andrew Thomas, Executive in Residence, Levin College of Urban Affairs, Cleveland State University
  • Brad Whitehead, President, The Fund for our Economic Future

  • The forum is moderated by Dan Moulthrop of The Civic Commons. Everyone from the community is invited to ask questions, voice concerns, offer solutions and rate the contributions of panelists and other community members. You can educate yourself on fracking with resources here. This forum is sponsored by The Youngstown Vindicator and WKYC-TV.

    On March 19th, several invited panelists were unable to participate because of technical problems with The Civic Commons website. We regret the problem.

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    1. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      This question was provided to all panelists in advance so they can respond at 8:30 a.m.

      Different stakeholders have very different concerns about how development of Ohio's shale resources will proceed. What are the concerns that are particular to your stakeholder group? And what are concerns you have that you believe are shared by the broader community?

       

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    2. Mike Foley
      Mike Foley

      So...two big concerns for me. 1) environmental - fracking is supposed to produce a cleaner fuel to burn in terms of greenhouse gas emissions, but studies like this one http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/04/fracking-methane/ show that the leakage of methane gas into the atmosphere are a potential net negative in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

      2) Revenue -assuming Ohio goes full bore into this stuff, our system of taxation is so woefully inadequate, as is, I believe Gov. Kasich's new proposal.  Rep. Bob Hagan and I are introducing legislation to raise the Severance tax to 7% of the value of oil and gas sold. Right now, the current tax is so low as to be meaningless. (Roughly 30 cents per cubic foot of volume sold for natural gas and 20 cents per barrel of oil.) Most other states tax per the value, not the volume of the product, with ranges from 5-7.5% being the norm.  

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    3. Brad Whitehead
      Brad Whitehead

      It seems that we may have hit upon our first point of agreement:  that the broader community (not just those who happen to be following this week's conversation on the Commons), needs to engage in a structured dialogue around what we want from Utica Shale gas development. 

      This would appear to be a "no regrets" move and we at the Fund stand ready to partner with others in such an effort.   conditions for success: the effort is highly visible and broadly participative; it is recognized as independent and objective; the effort is committed to education and the framing of real choices; and the process moves towards real decisions.

      Already, we signs of increasing polarization.  The current battle between Republicans about what is/is not a tax is merely the "next" manifestation of the potential divisiveness of the issue.  We have seen and will increasingly see inflamed passions on a host of other issues.  And in my conversations around the region, people seem to crave a reasoned conversation around how best to navigate this opportunity with the long term in mind.

      Yes.  Broad-based civic dialogue.  Soon. 

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    4. George Carr
      George Carr

      One of the issues that most concerns me is the measurement of impact on Ohio, in each topic under discussion. When we talk about the money being made, how much of it stays in Ohio? When we talk about the jobs being created, how many of them go to long-term Ohioans? When we talk about the chemicals being used or pollution being created, how much stays in Ohio? I feel handicapped in this debate because so much of the information I've found is slanted. Drillers make claims about employment and profits that omit how many people they're bringing in from out of state or how much of their earnings are declared out of state. Environmentalists make claims about polluting chemicals but omit what quantities of them stay in the Ohio/regional watertable, and what quantities are shipped elsewhere for disposal.

      So some sort of trusted (crowdsourced?) figures or charts about these issues would be super-helpful to me, and I would think to activists on all sides of the issues. Pointing out that 8 million gallons of fluid is used in a typical well frack sounds scary to environmentalists until one considers that Ohio gets a million gallons of rainfall per acre per year. And creating jobs sounds great to pro-development people until one discovers that most of those claimed jobs are in the driller's headquarters state, not in Ohio. So I'd like to see some infographics (=most effective way to convey and spin numerical information) that address the various claims in play.

      I'd look to the academics and journalists for this sort of analysis, but I know their resources are limited. So perhaps part of this Conversation could be pointing out who else is already engaged in that sort of work in other states, so we don't start from scratch here in Ohio.

      And on a related point, are there states that should be viewed as models of how the system can work well? Alaska, for instance, appears to make vast public money from its natural resources without despoiling its beautiful ecology, but perhaps I'm ignorant of the real story there. I just feel like oil/gas booms aren't new, we ought to be able to look to other regions for obvious mistakes that can be avoided, or obviously helpful regulations/policies.

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    5. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      I'd like to pull out this idea of local control for a bit more examination. Karl, Stefanie and Kari all mentioned it, but I'm not sure all of us understand what is meant by the term "local control." Thee  articles that Stefanie links to are both about localities that want to ban fracking (so, presumably, just about all drilling). Is that all "local control" means? The ability to locally ban a practice? Is there some other element to the enterprise that local control would address?

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    6. darrel wright
      darrel wright

      As I understand it, at both the producing well and disposal wells, the only thing standing between the regional water table and millions of gallons of toxic and potentially radioactive brine is a 2000 foot "straw" of concrete. Is the idea that this process is safe dependent on this concrete holding up? For how long? Is there any assurance that thousands of these concrete pours, conducted by scores of separate companies, are going to hold up for decades? Are they continually inspected? How do you address it thousands of feet down if it does start to fail? How many problems can we expect at current failure rates given the many thousands of wells being projected?

      I'd love to hear specific information from an industry source. Beyond the "don't worry, it's perfectly safe."

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    7. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      OK, let's focus for a moment on the environmental hazards, so we can focus on what level of regulation, inspection, and kinds of industry best practices need to be in place to avoid any environmental catastrophe. From what we can tell, there are a few points in the process where things can go awry.

      • At the surface, crude oil, fracking fluid, or wet natural gas can spill.
      • Where the bore hole crosses the water table, if the cement casing fails, oil, gas or fracking fluid can enter the aquifer.
      • Deep underground, if injection wells are employed beyond safe pressure ratings, may cause earthquakes
      • In the environment surrounding a well under development, increased truck traffic can have adverse effects on air and land quality, and vapors can release some chemicals into the local atmosphere.

      Firstly, does that summarize all the environmental hazards?

      Secondly, what are the current regulations, inspection routines, and industry practices that help us avoid those hazards? Are they currently adequate? Will they be adequate if and when well-drilling and production increases as expected? What, if anything, should be done to enhance current regs, rules, inspection and best practices?

       

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    8. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      Just a quick note: Day 1 of this forum has been fantastic, except for one thing--several invited panelists haven't been able to participate because of a technical issue on our site. I won't go into too much detail--a recent upgrade created problems for some folks who use Internet Explorer. Anyway, we're working to fix the problem and look forward to everyone's participation on Tuesday and Wednesday. Among the people unable to participate were people we invited from the oil and gas industry and the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. 

      I'd also like to say that I know emotions run high on this issue, and we really appreciate everyone's efforts to be civil and transparent. I'll say again, too, that our goal here is to find common ground and to do so by listening to and seeking to understand all sides and all points of view. That's not easy all the time, but it is necessary. Thanks for being here, everybody, and thanks for participating. If there are points of view that you feel aren't being represented, or people who you think ought to be a part of the conversation, please invite them to join in.

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      Posted Mar 19, 2012

    9. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      This is a question particularly for Dave Crandall, Heidi Hetzel Evans, and Brooks Miller (who experienced technical issues yesterday): 

      Two of the big questions yesterday had to do with concerns specific to any particular stakeholder group and the environmental hazards that are at play when ever a well is drilled and put into production. So, Dave and Brooks, what are the concerns for businesses in the supply chain? 

      and Heidi, what are the concerns that regulators at ODNR have? Also, a number of people have alluded to the number of inspectors at ODNR as being potentially inadequate to meet the growing demand. Is that something Ohioans should be very worried about? 

       

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    10. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      A follow-up question: Yesterday, John Mitterhozer brought up the concern of what you call externalized costs. He asked: "How much will the impacts to agriculture, public health, natural resources, water and air quality and other sectors truly cost the state both short term and long term?" My question--for John, Andrew Thomas, Mike Foley, and anyone else: How we might we measure those costs? Can we look at Pennsylvania or other regions and get some sense of the order of magnitude? 

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    11. David J. Crandall
      David J. Crandall

      If I have to name a concern, and, having spent a good deal of time educating myself about the process, I struggle to identify one, I would say that my biggest concern is that a few companies will not operate responsibly and create an issue somewhere that results in a curtailing of the opportunity, when enforcement of existing regulation and a continued and careful consideration of improvements to regulation may adequately address the issue.  Having said that, I must emphasize that I think Ohio is making good headway in this regard.  We've all heard about tragedies in Pennsylvania, but I can tell you that ODNR has learned from Pennsylvania and other states.  For example, unlike states where wells are single-cased, in Ohio, a 20 inch well bore is cased in at least 3 steel pipes and 8 inches of concrete.  No, nothing is fool-proof, but that fact is that we (at least most of us) need energy for our daily lives and there is no perfect solution.  I hope one day  wind and solar technologies will improve and become economically viable, but today they are not.

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    12. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      We're about halfway through the scheduled time for this shale forum, and I think we've learned a lot. We've gotten a lot better educated about the fracking process, the amount of water involved, the costs involved the environmental hazards at play both in the direct process and the ancillary processes of waste fluid removal, disposal and recycling. 

      We've heard that ODNR is poised to grow its staff to meet the increasing demand, and, I guess we're making an assumption that the growth in staff is funded by the fees and revenues collected by the State of Ohio from the industry (but I hope we can get clarification on that).

      We discussed the accounting of costs associated with so-called "externalities," and it sounds like there may be an opportunity for our friends in philanthropy to get with our friends in academia and the industry and start studying what needs to be studied. The question, though, is whether those concerns can be integrated effectively in the decision-making process in Columbus;

      There are a number of other concerns to which we haven't yet heard answers or solutions.

      • The extent to which regulatory fines provide a sufficient deterrent to ensure safety in industry practices;
      • the specifics of Governor Kasich's energy proposal;
      • And how the broader public should be educated about the many issues involved and how that public should be involved in the current decision-making process;

      Since the taxation portion of the Governor's proposal has been put on the back-burner by Republicans in the General Assembly, we might perhaps have more time to discuss that. So let's get to that last question (which actually comes from panelist Brad Whitehead). A better educated and engaged public would probably benefit everyone, including industry groups. So, beyond this effort in these three days, and the upcoming events at The City Club of Cleveland, what else could we do help our state and our leaders make the right decisions?

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    13. Tonya Higgins
      Tonya Higgins

      Good afternoon everyone. I would first like to thank the North Canton Patch/Civic Commons for hosting this forum. This is an example of great journalism - a phenomenon in today's age in my opinion. 

      Many great points have already been brought up, and I will try to keep my post brief - but also include all the points I wish to make. 

      First - The Industry is not out to destroy the world (I hope) and is trying to ensure the safety of this practice. However, their main objective is profit, and they have a standard allowable rate of accidents, and negative environmental impacts. This standard seems to be based primarily on the rules of the nation/states they are working in. Look at PA for example. Until there were complaints from residents the industry was allowed, by the state, to dump the produced water from the drilling into local rivers and streams. In other countries, drilling waste is, right now, being dumped into their rivers and streams.  History has shown us the ruthlessness of this all powerful industry over the past 150 years. It is the job of the nation's leaders to combat this ruthlessness, however, many of our leaders have been, and will continue to be, swayed by the promise of capital gain, or political power, by siding with the industry. This is the world we live in; there is no arguing this fact.

      Second - Environmental impact is not avoidable with highly industrialized activities. This is an industrial endeavor at a rate never before seen. There WILL be air pollution, there WILL be water pollution, there WILL be soil pollution. And this is barring any accidents. Highly industrialized regions have a high rate of cancer, poverty, asthma, depression, respiratory diseases, and a huge decrease in cognitive abilities in children. And apparently with waste water injection there WILL be earthquakes. Again, this is not avoidable, nor fixable.

      Third - Accidents happen. There will be spills, blow outs, truck accidents, etc. Again, unavoidable, unfixable, and unarguable. If the industry standard for accidents is 1%, then for every 100 wells drilled, there will be 1 accident. If the goal is to drill 12,000 wells in Ohio (that is a low estimate by 1 company) that is 120 accidents. And that is their allowable rate. To date, the technology to fix the problems that will occurr do not exist. Fines and tax breaks do not fix the problems, they just appease the buracrats. 

      Fourth - As someone has already mentioned, the water being used is being completely removed from the ecosystem, something never before seen. Seven billion people, plus all the plant and other wildlife, share just 1% of the world's water supply. As we decrease this supply, the foreseeable near future is going to be frought with water shortages. Why is it that the largest oil barons are also becoming the largest private owners of fresh water supplies? It a viscious circle that seems pretty obvious to me. (Oh, and to whomever stated that the water usage is NOT 8 million gallons per well - I beg to differ, though I believe your attempt was to be "technically correct". The fracturing process itself may not take 8 million gallons, but the overall process, including drilling mud, fracturing fluid, etc, does take an approximate 8 million gallons of fresh water per well. This is per the industry.)

      The ONLY reason people are allowing this to happen is money. Any arguement to the contrary is trite. Humans are the only animals on this planet that destroy the environment purposefully, and then moan and wail when the effects of pollution become prevelant. I understand economics; I know it is difficult to turn down a financial windfall. But really, if someone held a gun to a childs head and offerred you $2,000 to shoot - would you take it?

      It is really difficult for me to comprehend the fact that as a nation we have allowed an antiquated industry to continue to rule our daily lives, to pollute our environment, destroy the healths of the wildlife, the people, and the ecosystem as a whole. We have the innovation and technology to have a better way, and we have to sink the money into infrastructure anyway, why not just convert now to a multitude of clean energy technologies? It would bring in permanent jobs, boost the economy, sustain te environment, and allow our children to have a better future.

      So what do we do? I wish for a ban on the process. I wish for people to refuse the jobs and the industry's money. I wish to see philanthropists and innovators work together on ensuring we have a multitude of clean energy sources. I wish to see this great nation, with its vast resource of clean water and open land available to us, and future generations, heal from the scars of highly industrialized mining and waste disposal.

      I find it rediculous that we have to deal with this issue. Is it 1885 or 2012?

      And for what it is worth, yes, I am an environmentalist. Whoever thought that acknowledging ones effect on the environment and trying to make it better would be demonized? Is that not what the past inhabitants of places such as Easter Island were trying to warn us to be sure to do? We rely on a clean environment to live healthy lives!

       

       

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    14. darrel wright
      darrel wright

      I wonder if anyone could comment on why there is an urgency to develop this resource right now, when there are clearly so many unknowns, the process in borderline experimental, and the asset is likely sitting at or near the lowest price it will ever command? Is the gas going anywhere in a hurry? In a decade or two I'd guess there will be processes in place that will mitigate or eliminate the majority of the environmental concern. What am I missing? What's the downside to waiting?

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    15. Tonya Higgins
      Tonya Higgins

      A couple of questions for the panelists:

      When negative environmental impacts occur - by normal industrial activity, or by accidents - who is responsible to fix the problems, and what physical practices are in place to remediate the situation? Can the air quality be fixed? Or the water quality improved? Who is responsible for the monitoring of this situation?

      Another question. Has it yet been determined what is happening with the 165 cubic feet of radioactive drill cuttings that need disposed of per well?

      Thank you in advance for your expertise.

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    16. Sam Bell
      Sam Bell

      Perhaps the biggest question should be this: What’s the rush?
      If this gas is such a valuable resource, won’t its value increase over time?  (When, with more accumulated experience, we might do a little better job of extraction?)

      I concur with those who recognize that the true cost of energy is not reflected by current market prices.  Depletion allowances, defense expenditures, and a variety of externalities (of both positive and negative impact) combine to distort prices, generally by depressing them. 

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    17. Andrew Thomas
      Andrew Thomas

      Oil and gas companies have contractual obligations to drill.   Leases typically require drilling within a five year window, and some are as little as two to three years, or they are terminated.    There are some 3 million acres of leaseholds on the clock in Ohio.  If the oil and gas companies do not drill, they lose billions of dollars in lease bonuses payed to Ohio landowners.   It takes several months to drill a new well.  They cannot possibly drill all their acreage if they do not move with alacrity.    Of course, this is a private contract issue that has no bearing on the public good, and the public policy makers should not consider this if they see a potential public health problem.    But you asked what the hurry was -- from the oil and gas company perspective, they lose their investment if they don't move forward quickly.   That is why they are in a hurry. 

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      Posted Mar 20, 2012

    18. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      We are entering day 3 of this forum, and I have to say, it's gone incredibly well. We've seen some strong interest here in a meaningful statewide education and engagement process, and for northeast Ohioans, an opportunity at The City Club of Cleveland is coming up March 30, featuring the Ohio Oil and Gas Association and Ohio Environmental Council. It's a Friday forum, so that means it will be broadcast on radio and television, which will help. It's the first of several City Club events focused on shale development being planned (a link is below), but, we hope is just one element of the kind of statewide effort that's been proposed here.

      With that in mind, my question to the panel and the community is this: What are the compromises you'd like to see explored?

      When you answer this, think about the compromises that could be explored in the General Assembly and the Governor's office; in how the industry works and what industry trade groups are asking for; and in what environmental groups are seeking. Think also about whether any side you align with might concede some ground.

          

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    19. Bill Weber
      Bill Weber

      I have a couple of questions, and a concern.  First question, A company will be doing sonic testing in Ashtabula county, covering an 18 square mile area using explosive charges buried between 20-30 ft deep for a geological profile.  Isn't ther a less disruptive technique for this??  My concern is the reproduction of wildlife at this time of year.  The amphibians, and migrating birds, bats, etc..

      Second question, we all see the damage salt does to bridge infrastructure, are there any standards as to the quality and/or composition of the concrete used to case the fracking and injection wells??   
      And, lastly, I am not against the recovery of gas in Ohio, I just want to make sure it is properly regulated, monitored, and enforced.  All the regulations in the world are worthless, if the "properly trained manpower" are not available.  There will be a rally in Chardon Square this Saturday from 12:30 t 3:30 for those interested.

      Thank you, Bill Weber

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      Posted Mar 21, 2012

    20. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      I think some of the compromise suggestions may be worth pursuing, or, at minimum, bringing up with the appropriate people. As I stated above, I think that getting some Republican lawmakers to be a part of the conversation would be exceedingly helpful. Any assistance that anyone involved in the conversation can offer would be greatly appreciated.

      At any rate, as we near the final afternoon of this forum, I want to say that we very much appreciate the time and attention that everyone has devoted to this. Though the official "panel" concludes this afternoon, anyone and everyone are welcome to continue to discuss these issues here in this conversation, in other conversations here at the Commons (start a new one, if you like!), and at any of the public events that are coming up. If you know of any events that others should be aware of, please post them here. 

      Also, I just got off the phone with Heidi at ODNR who assured me she is, right now, organizing answers to many of the questions and concerns raised here. 

      Some of you may be wondering exactly what we've accomplished here. First and foremost, everyone who participated--panelists and community members alike--have done yeoman's work in helping to educate our community. And all of you have helped spread great ideas about compromise, concerns, engagement opportunities, and the possible futures that Ohio may face. 

      On another note, it's conversations like these that demonstrate that informed, productive civil dialogue about hot button issues is possible.

      Also, we're constantly trying to figure out how to improve The Civic Commons. If you have feedback, please email me: danmoulthrop@theciviccommons.com.  

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      Posted Mar 21, 2012

    21. Melanie Houston
      Melanie Houston

      Here is a nice blog which offers both the critiques and counterpoints of the Duke University study, which found 17 times higher methane levels within drinking water wells at houses within 1 km proximity to hydro-fracking drilling activities. It is worthwhile to look at the debate among scientists before dismissing the study as "biased." Contrary to claims that I've heard made, the study was in fact peer reviewed and has been cited 44 times since it was published, which is not a small number of citations for the amount of time it has been published. Of course we all decide whether to reject or accept information depending on whether it fits nicely within our own values and belief systems. I urge folks to dig a little deeper and to expose themselves to information that actually contradicts their own beliefs about the merits and shortcomings of this new technology.

       

       

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    22. Sam Bell
      Sam Bell

      There really is a single, simple answer to almost every environmental conundrum.  Require that after appropriate treatment, all liquid waste products be discharged into the producer’s water source, upstream of his water intake.  Prohibit the import or use of other water, and require the producer to drink from the water source at least one quart per day.  For solid waste products, again after appropriate treatment, the producer must use them as additions to his garden soil, from which he must eat two servings daily.  For airborne waste, require that discharge must be upwind of the producers home and business according to prevailing winds.  As you will see, this rapidly becomes self-enforcing.  Laws similar to this are already in force in some Scandinavian jurisdictions.

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      Posted Mar 22, 2012

    23. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

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    24. Dan Moulthrop
      Dan Moulthrop

      And, in case you missed it, the Vice President is weighing in, and, one wishes, would pay more attention to the folks who brief him. 

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    25. Mike Shafarenko
      Mike Shafarenko

      The Ohio Department of Natural Resources has awarded Chesapeake Exploration eight new horizontal drilling permits including one in Mahoning County.

       

      Don't forget to vote on how much tax you think oil and gas developers should pay: http://theciviccommons.com/conversations/charting-the-future-of-fracking/actions#opportunity-nav 

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    Participants

    Dan Moulthrop Dr. Jeffrey  Dick Stefanie Penn Spear Mike Foley Karl Henkel John Mitterholzer Kari Matsko Brad Whitehead Andrew Thomas George Carr David J. Crandall Kathryn Hanratty Jill Miller Zimon Caitlin Johnson darrel wright Jan Dregalla Concerned Citizens Ohio Dan Pilkington Policy Matters Ohio Alexander Lotorto Lawrence Hall Tara Stitzlein Wes McCann Bob Hagan ODNR Division of Oil and Gas Jason Segedy Buckeye Forest Council Tonya Higgins Sam Bell Ary Bastos Chris Cotelesse Timothy Francisco Doug Livingston Daryl Rowland Nancy Reeves LeAnn Ramirez Bill Weber Gwen B. Fischer Anne Caruso Melanie Houston Nicole Stempak Diana Ludwig Mike Shafarenko Mark W. Schumann Emily Cole Noelle Celeste Erin Huber Chris Thompson Elaine Baer Adam Rosen Cat White Teaching Cleveland

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    Mark W. Schumann - "It's been nine months, Dan. Has "Heidi at ODNR" actually provided those answers?"

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