Started on Oct 11, 2012 by Jason Russell
In the second debate of the campaign season, Vice President Nominee Paul Ryan and Vice President Joe Biden will discuss the issues of today.
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TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Hey Jason,
I talked your ear off after the Presidential Debate, we will see how well I can type it today.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Martha Raddatz kicks it off, promising to move back and forth b/w foreign and domestic policies. VP Biden is first. What are you listening/watching for?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Any bets on the time of Biden's first Gaffe? (That's a non-partisan question, by the way)
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Posted Oct 11, 2012
Starting with Libya. Biden: Its a tragedy, and we will bring them to justice. Do you think this was a failure of intelligence?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Libya, a massive intelligence faliure? Biden agrees that it was, and a huge loss. But he avoided talking about why that happened. Pivoted quickly to other foreign policy issues. Bin Laden gets mentioned within the first two minutes. Not surprised.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Ryan out of the box calls out Obama and Biden for focusing on the YouTube video instead of recognizing that it was a terrorist attack. Claims this was a matter of projecting weakness abroad.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Raddatz pushes back on Ryan--reminding everyone that Romney started casting blame on Obama right after the Libya attack.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Biden: that's a bunch of malarkey. The Congressman cut embassy security by $300 mn. We need a FACT CHECK.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
http://jbk-current-events.blogspot.com/2012/10/campaigns-spar-over-funds-for-embassy.html seems to be a balanced assessment.
Paraphrased:
The 19% non-defense discretionarycuts proposed in the Ryan budget, applied evenly across the board would have resulted in $300 million cuts to embassy security.
The opposing view is that the budget wasn't that detailed - it is impossible to tell from the budget where specific cuts would have made.
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Posted Oct 11, 2012
sweet. thx for digging that up, Nancy. When Biden said that, it sounded like Ryan had voted to actually cut that security, not just advocated those cuts.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Strong first statment by Biden. Although he did sidestep the issue of how the story changed.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Hey Louis! Do you know he was told that, or are you guessing?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
It's never to early to speak up about values and cuts to our military undermine our security.
Do you agree with that? Is it okay to apologize to others?
Do miliary cuts reality signify weakness?
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Posted Oct 11, 2012
Good questions, J. I think there's a time and place for everything. Even in the midst of a political campaign, these kind of statements should be weighed and thought carefully through before jumping in and "speaking up for American values."
And no, military cuts don't signal weakness. But I could be convinced otherwise.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I agree with Dan to say that we need to think carefully about what message we send , but we need to find balance between international involvement and our domestic issues. It may be somewhat of a catch 22 at this point. Our domestic issues are vital and the cuts presented are not to reflect weakness but prudence. The entire budget does shape our priorities and military spending will still be a very sizeable portion/priority.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Aside: Martha Raddatz is killing it. She might be one of my new favorite moderators. So far, she seems to be giving Ryan a bit more time, though.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Agree she's doing a phenom. job moderating. She's actually moderating!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I agree, she's fantastic. Human, engaged, fair, balancing policy matters with political developments. Command performance so far!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Ok, on the tax stuff, she lost control. I don't like hearing these guys talk over one another.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Paul Ryan: We are going to change their mind.
But how? Seems to suggesting military action. Are you okay with that?
Biden: They don't have a weapon yet. We know that. Let's all calm down, they are more isolated now.
Is Iran still a concern for you?
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Posted Oct 11, 2012
Iran is a huge huge concern. Instability there and Israel's response to that nation is so touchy. We need a NOCMES guy here for some professional persepctive.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Really insteresting the way Biden switched to the very informal Bibi. His style is communicating a deep familiarity with the issues.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I liked Biden when he was on Senate Foreign Relations Committee. As someone who worked on nuclear disarmament issues for many years, I'm glad to hear Biden speak to the real issue of what Iran does/doesn't have.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Middle East = Terrorism? That wasn't a fair assessment.
But at least we agree that war in Middle East is something no one wants.
Posted Oct 11, 2012
Everyone ignores the Israeli nuclear stockpile too. We need the US to show leadership on arms control - something Obama "gets" impressively well - so that nuclear weapons don't remain the ultimate symbol of power. That's what North Korea, Iran, etc al, really want -- to be in the nuclear Big Boys club. That's what we saw with India and Pakistan too.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I'm enjoying the way Martha is moderating this debate much better than Jim.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Vice President Biden is clearly on offense, maybe a bit more assertively than wise but a clear departure from President Obama's. It'll be interesting to see how the media covers it, focusing on Biden's killer lines like "That's a bunch of stuff" or "Facts Matter" or doing what they did to Gore and focusing on the signs and eyerolls.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
"Bunch of stuff" was a good one. Does Ryan appear ready for the White House? As in the one heartbeat away from the Oval Office kind of ready?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I'd love to hear the uncensored version of what is going through Biden's head. Both of them, for that matter. VP debate in a Cleveland bar over cans of Bud.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I think Rep. Ryan comes across well-informed, earnest, and nice, which is pretty much his reputation. He does seem a little green, though, not quite yet presidential, if only because of his age and midwestern lack of gravitas. A dozen years from now, though? Very different story.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
you're right, I think, Justin. That's an accurate assessment.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
So many statistics being mentioned. Who is fact checking? Its very easy to skew numbers.
Wouldn't it be nice if a tv network checked these facts during the broadcast?
Posted Oct 11, 2012
That would be great. It's hard to keep track of it all and know what is "factual" and what is " about bunch of stuff".
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Twitter is great for that. I'll keep an eye out for non-partisan corrections there.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
if there are facts anyone wants checked, let's label them with FACT CHECK, and then whoever's got a moment and interest can take care of it.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Here is a link to the New York Times fact checking on the debate.
Toggle
Vice-Presidential Debate Fact-Checks and Updates - Live Coverage - Election 2012 - NYTimes.com
Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Representative Paul D. Ryan square off on Thursday night in Danville, Ky. in the only vice-presidential debate.
Posted Oct 12, 2012
The 47% iis troublesome to me. I feel as if it was a very "heartfelt" statement. He may have been trying to say Obama has a base that he knows he can't win over. He was nasty and degrading. I am the 47% and don't want a hand out, just opportunity.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Medicare and social security going bankrupt. These guys aren't going to address the question that is really at the heart here: should government have a role in ensuring a basic level of security for citizens?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I'd like a visual breakdown. I can't reasonably make sense of it all. Why are they only talking about seniors?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
They can't even fully answer the question about what they would do secure the current program.
How could they answer the larger philosophical question?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Privitizing medicare? What a nightmare. I am so glad we are finally saying no to not covering prior conditions or allowing insurance companies to deny coverage.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Thoughts on how the interactions between these two men will play with viewers? I can see some seeing Biden's interruptions (pointing out Ryan's inaccuracies) as evidence that Ryan is dishonest, but I can also see some thinking Biden's being a jerk. What do you think those mythical independent voters will see?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Ryan's taken some cheap shots, Biden's gaffe's and Obama's performance last week, they seem pretty even to me...
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I share your concerns. I wish Biden would reign it in a bit.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I think Biden is most likable and believable when he speaks in turn, rather than interrupting. Ryan, as you pointed out does seem earnest and authentic.
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Posted Oct 11, 2012
Good question. I'm biased in his favor, but I think Biden's confident demeanor works for him. But I can see people who see Ryan as a nice younger man who's more polite. Hmmmm. Many polls and interviews with voters in barbershops await us tomorrow.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Does it make sense to raise the social security age to save the program?
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Posted Oct 11, 2012
It probably does, especially given the biological fact that life spans are getting longer--the program wasn't created imagining people would spend three decades receiving benefits. So, yeah, it kind of does need to be rethought.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I would prefer to eliminate the cap on paying into Social Security. Currently income above $110,100 is not subject to FICA tax.
I would prefer to pay more rather than raise retirement age. There are people who wear their bodies out with hard labor, for whom working a few extra years would be a major hardship - and many of those do not earn enough to be able to retire on their own.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Jason, personally, I think it does. Or, perhaps stated differently, the arguments used to keep it the way it has been for decades, despite changes in health tech, work-life patterns, and age expectancy, don't seem to hold water. This is an area where you can see Dems captive to the AARP vote.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Plenty of analysts (like economists Paul Krugman and Dean Baker) say Social Security doesn't need saving to begin with. That aside, while I used to think that raising the minimum age made sense, a coworker got me to rethink that. She works with low-income communities, and she talked about how hard extra work years are for people who do physically demanding, low paying jobs. That made me think of my own mother who at age 68 is still cleaning houses for a living - despite pain in her shoulder and hand - because she can't afford to retire even with this safety net. The age change would hurt the most vulnerable seniors.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I still don't get how you eliminate a deficit while lowering taxes?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
As Biden is saying right now--the only way is getting rid of loopholes. But it's a tough sell.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Revenue gets lost in the tax debates all the time. And research shows that when the government doesn't have the money to fully fund programs, people just see failure and doubt the efficiacy of government to deliver much of anything.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Simple questions and complicated answers.
Ryan still won't answer the 20% question. I would like to know how you are going do a tax cut.
What loopholes are specifically talking about closing?
Posted Oct 11, 2012
I was about to say "I think he said he wouldn't close any loopholes." But now he's saying he would close loopholes. I'm a little confused.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I don't trust that my home mortgage deduction, and education tax credits will not be affected.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Both of which would hurt our generation. Why buy a house? Why go to school?
How does that help our economy?
Posted Oct 11, 2012
So I am watching CNN in a hotel lobby bar place - only three people watching with me but ok. They can't figure out what the dial thing is on CNN and frankly that timer makes me little stressed. I don't like the split screen - I'd like to see the whole table in one shot.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Can we talk about bipartisanship for a second? I'm a big fan of the concept, but does Ryan have credibility on this? I tend to lump him in with the Mitch McConnells and John Boehners in Congress. Did I miss a moment when Ryan was advocating compromise?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Ryan advocated for bi-partisanship in principle, but compromise was not mentioned. The tea party wing of the party makes advocating compromise very challenging.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Sorry, I meant historically. Like in the Congress in which he has been serving.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I say no, Dan. Ryan is the poster child of this new breed of young Republicans that looks at compromise as moral failure. That said, the vast (very vast) majority of voters don't have the knowledge of American politics to know that, or to realize that Ryan's calls for bipartisanship - and what he calls bipartisanship - are hollow.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Justin - I am at a conference that focuses on deliberative inquiry and the intransigence of many politicians is a near anathema to democracy as many see it.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
little known fact - I supported Biden in the Dem primary in 2008 because he spoke about nuclear proliferation when no one else did. It is the single most important topic not discussed.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Romney/Ryan seems to think reduction in arms and troops is a sign of weakness.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I remember that, Jill (his statement, not your support), and I noted that he seemed at that moment to be one of the wisest candidates running.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
They must be doing fairly well because I have been up since 1:30am PST and I am still awake. Ooh here comes religion...and abortion!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Jill: As someone who spent 1993-2005 working for nuclear disarmament full time, I bow in your direction! I was happy to get to ask President Obama during his campaign stop at Nike Site Park in Parma if we'll see the U.S. ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty in his next term. Without missing a beat, he said "I would very much like that." (Now. getting it through the Senate . . . ) And yes, it was not lost on me that I was asking him about nukes in my childhood park that used to house nike missiles.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Bowing totally declined! But the geopolitical ignorance of voters is so unfortunate, it really dominoes into so much other poor prioritization about what really threatens the world. I bow to you for working on the topic for so long!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
So he is trying to indicate that we should send more troops to Afghanistan?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
That isn't clear, he started off saying we needed more forces but then he says he agrees with 2014 timeline.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
No troops just change the language! OMG And he is also proposing to just usurp all international diplomacy.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
This Syria segment, like the Afghanistan segment, is getting in the weeds. But I'm glad it's getting an airing. I've been confused in the last year about why Obama has supported opposition in Egypt and Libya but not Bahrain or Syria.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Raddatz gets better and better as the debate goes on. She's providing a model for the art form.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I was loving her until she asked a religion question. Religion has absolutely no place in politics. Wasn't that part of the founding of our country.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
it shouldn't, but it does, J. That's the reality. And faith informs the character of both these candidates, at least one of whom spends a bit of time playing up his own faith to appeal to certain constituents. So, religion as a topic is actually fair game.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Totally with you. Growing up in shadow of Kennedy's statements about religion having no place in politics, the move toward convergence of religion and politics that began most obviously in the late 1980s is very distressing to me.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
I am glad she asked the question.
I can't separate my faith from who I am - and I don't expect anyone for whom faith is central in their life can. I want to know how they view how their faith intersects with their ability to carry out the job they are seeking
It doesn't play a role in many jobs I have sought - but it did in one. The courts, at virtually every level, participate imposing or affirming the death penalty. When I applied for a position in the appellate courts, I needed to make it clear that if I was hired I would be unable to draft any opinion that involved the death penalty because my integrity as an attorney would require that I write an opinion consistent with the law (regardless of whether I thought it should be the law), but my faith would not permit me to play a role in keeping someone on death row. It would have been unfair to the judge I would be working for to accept a job my faith would prevent me from fully performing.
If there are similar hard stops (or affirmative positions) that the VP's personal faith requires them to take, I want to know it - and I want to know how they think thorugh these things.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Religion doesn't belong in politics, but she asked an open question to which a candidate could answer just that. And I'm glad that voters were reminded that there were two Catholics discussing the abortion question, which took away the Ryan Catholic high ground -- made their religion moot, in a way. I do long for the day when religion or lack of it doesn't matter in US politics.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
And with her followup on the abortion question, she went right to the heart of the matter. I can't help but notice that we've all paused for a moment here, mayeb to hear what the candidates were going to say on the issue, maybe to avoid bringing it up here. She's serving America very well right now.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Hard to listen, read and write simultaneously...isn't it?
Toggle
Posted Oct 11, 2012
I want to respond to everything I hear, so this is a nice release valve. :-)
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
"At the end of the day, are you ever ashamed of the tone?" Wow, Martha. I hope she gets a bonus!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Funny how they both went on the attack in their response. Did they not hear the question? Build up America not take each other down. We have a long way to go in America.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Yeah, I noticed that, too. Would have been refreshing for them to say, "Look Martha, this race is too close to take the high road and, frankly, this negativity is the only thing that moves the needle, even if voters say they hate it."
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
CNN dial thingy for women showing that they are liking on Biden right now
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Yes. The women seemed to prefer Ryan during the earlier part of the debate. Then it shifted. Don't you think?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Wow did I hear him right? ( I was reading maybe I missed something) , the court should not make those decisions. So let's overturn Brown v. the Board of Education as well.
I believe that just as Biden, religion/spirituality is a guide for your own personal life and family, not a free democratic nation. Personally, as a person of faith I do believe that life begins at conception, even if dealing with science that is true. But, I don't impose those beliefs on my neighbors. Also ultimately, I also understand the externalities of criminalizing woman who are faced with the decision to keep a "unwanted" child. No way can I put a hurt, scared,desperate woman in a jail cell or otherwise for making a choice that she felt was best for her giving her circumstance.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
You didn't love Tracy Flick? Remember her face in the bus window looking at Matthew Broderick?!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Perfect! I've been thinking he looks just right to be debating for University of Wisconsin's class president, but just visually not yet right for the debate he's actually at.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Ultimately it all comes down to which candidates voters believe on the jobs and economy issue, eh?
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
Great conversation, all. Thanks for watching the debate with us!!
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012
For any interested, here's a transcript, which is very useful, particularly for sussing out the tax positions.
Toggle
Full Transcript of the Vice-Presidential Debate
MARTHA RADDATZ: Good evening, and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2012, sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. I'm Martha Raddatz of ABC News, and I am honored to moderate this debate between two men who have dedicated much of their lives to public service.
Posted Oct 12, 2012
Good - now I can catch up on everything I missed in the first 15 minutes while I was dealing with broken cars, computers, and zunes...
TogglePosted Oct 12, 2012
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Terrance Reynolds - " During the debate last night both Vice President Joe Biden, and Congressman Paul..."
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The second presidential debate of the 2012 election begins tonight at 9pm. It can be seen on most news networks or online on Youtube.
TogglePosted Oct 11, 2012